BROADCAST: 29 January 2010

VIOLET GONDA: My guest on the programme Hot Seat is the German Ambassador to Zimbabwe Dr. Albrecht Conze. Dr Conze is also chairman of the eleven major donor organisations who partly fund the constitutional reform process in Zimbabwe . Welcome on the programme Dr Conze.

ALBRECHT CONZE: Hallo Violet, I’m glad to be here.

GONDA: Thank you. Let me start by getting your views on the political situation in Zimbabwe at present.

CONZE: Well we are one year into a transitional process now that is determined by the GPA and also by the Agreement that SADC produced at its conference at the end of January last year. We are one year into that revolutionary exercise I would say for Zimbabwe, and we all started with a lot of hope but I think lately we must all consider the stagnation that has now grown in many areas of the implementation of the Agreement itself and generally speaking the progress agenda that was agreed among all participants. I’m not overly worried because eventually African transitions usually are successful. I’ve been in a few in my life and so I’m still confident that the three parties will pull together and find solutions to the outstanding problems. But right now it’s not looking very promising so let’s hope for better times again - and of course when you hear a statement such as from the President who very categorically stated that no more concessions were possible until sanctions were lifted, then of course, said in such a categorical way it doesn’t give you much hope for exploring the areas such as the implementation of all those areas of progress that had been agreed upon.

I’m talking about the commissions - now the commissions have been more or less set up I think the personnel have been chosen, the decisions are there yes, but nothing is being implemented, so that is one example. We still have no new governors, we still have not solved the major issues, well I say we, the Zimbabweans have not solved the major issues related to certain persons, the Attorney General, the Governor of the Central Bank, the designed Deputy Minister for Agriculture – all these issues I think are still where they used to be, where they were six months ago. So that is worrying because there’s just no pace visible for progress and progress is essential to get to the constitution, to get to the referendum and then to get to elections next year as the Prime Minister has just reiterated in the Davos.

GONDA: But does it help the situation if you get statements, like the recent statement by the British Foreign Secretary saying that the issue of removing sanctions will be guided by the MDC ? Is this really the right way to approach this issue?

CONZE: Well I think it is a European decision and it is now almost seven years old. The first time the restrictive measures were agreed upon by the Council was in 2003 and European governments at that time had made their decision, because they make decisions uninfluenced by local constituents of this or that direction. We had realised in Europe that many things in Zimbabwe were going into a direction that gave us a reason for serious concern. So ever since, and I would say throughout this last decade, this country has not been a source of many good news, on the contrary. So in reacting to developments on the ground, Europeans have made their own judgements and I think they all have their means to find out about how they should develop and pursue their relations with Zimbabwe . They don’t need advice from the ground, from one or the other party.

GONDA: So was Mr Miliband speaking on behalf of the EU or just Britain ?

CONZE: As far as I know he was speaking in the House of Commons and that is traditionally a place where one only speaks for one’s own country.

GONDA: So are there significant differences of opinion within the EU on this issue?

CONZE: The European Union has welcomed the formation of the inclusive government. Both from the European Commission, which administers the common funds of Europe, but also from national capitals, we’ve been extremely supportive of this government - and help and support for Zimbabwe has increased considerably over the past year, beyond purely humanitarian aid. We have engaged in areas such as water, health, education, now we are engaging in financial support for the constitutional process because it’s crucial for progress. Everything that brings Zimbabwe out of the corner into which the country in many ways unfortunately had manoeuvred herself, there is something Europe supports - and we do this in a very unified way and a very united way. I don’t think you can see serious differences of perception and reaction and policy among the European governments, among the European capitals. We are all on the same line here; we want this country to get back on its feet and to find a way out of the crisis that had struck it over the past years.

GONDA: And of course as you said, Zanu-PF has said it will not make any GPA concessions until the sanctions are removed, so have conditions warranted removal - conditions on the ground in Zimbabwe ?

CONZE: We all hope that the turning point has been reached and it has been reached in February last year and we see many signs for this especially in terms of beginning of economic recovery and of financial stability that is in the process of being regained. So when sanctions were last hardened, when measures were last added to in January 2009 the situation was very different from today. We had so many signs of hope now in Zimbabwe that I’m very confident that the next Council decision will certainly not harden sanctions so maybe the maximum has been reached and when you’ve reached the maximum then it goes the other way.

GONDA: So when you say not ‘harden sanctions’ are you saying not add to the list?

CONZE: I think there is a consensus now that nobody and no company will be restricted to the list of restricted measures.

GONDA: Yes but is the EU going to lift restrictions against the parastatals and indeed the individuals who are currently on the sanctions list?

CONZE: Well the discussion is still on going, the decision will be made and published by mid-February and as I told you I’m confident that there will be some good news.

GONDA: If I may just go back to the issue of Mr Miliband’s statement, many have said his statement legitimises the Zanu-PF position that the MDC is working in cahoots with foreign governments. What are your views on this? To what extent does the MDC decide for example, if the sanctions stay or not?

CONZE: The MDC has nothing to decide there. The MDC has gained the majority of seats in parliament two years ago, the MDC candidate had received at least the relative majority in the presidential election so of course there is a lot of legitimacy with regard to what the MDC is saying and doing. I don’t say by stating this that everything the MDC does and says is something that others should immediately follow up on. This is an internal matter of Zimbabwe . What we as Germans and Europeans now realise is that due to the entry of the MDC into the government, many sectors of public life look different today from a year ago and look different in a positive way and opinion polls and our own findings suggest that the population does realise that things are moving forward, so we want to support that tendency and we want to support it for all Zimbabweans. But we do not follow particular voices because we are able to make our own judgement and we will continue to make our own judgement.

GONDA: Right, so what would you say to Deputy Prime Minister Arthur Mutambara who says that the West should listen more and talk less? He recently said this in DAVOS that Mr Miliband’s statement is an example of how western leaders can be very un-strategic and completely undermine the formal Opposition’s bargaining power. What are your thoughts on this?

CONZE: Violet I’m not here to give a value judgement on the British Foreign Secretary’s statement in the House of Commons, I think the British Ambassador would have to be asked to say something about that. I think on a more general tone, we have been listening a lot and it was easier to listen since the inclusive government has been formed because the government is again in dialogue with the western ambassadors in Harare . When I first arrived there was no such dialogue between the then government and the group of western ambassadors here. So that is very, very important, so we listen a lot, yes, and we only give advice when we’ve been asked to give advice because Zimbabwe is a very mature country and knows where it wants to go. But we are there to help and we are there to support and it is only in that sense that we view our European policy and also in a larger sense, our policy as western donors for the benefit of this country - because there was a time when Zimbabwe was able to look after itself with huge export surplus and when it was a positive economic factor within the region.

There’s no reason why Zimbabwe could not get back there and Germany is ready to support that. We want German investments. I’ve gone out of my way over the past six months to explain to German investors, to potential investors, that there are new possibilities and new opportunities in this country. So of course it takes two to tango, when one encourages people to come, one should not produce bad news at the same time and unfortunately there are still too many bad news coming out of Zimbabwe .

GONDA: What kind of investments have you been trying to bring in and to what extent have you been successful?

CONZE: There is a long-standing tradition of economic co-operation between Germany and Zimbabwe . We used to be as Germans the second trading partner of Zimbabwe in the ‘80s and ‘90s, just after South Africa . There’s no reason why we could not get to that status again because German products are requested by Zimbabwean customers. We could certainly help in infrastructure, in power generating - all this of course needs financing and there are international attempts now ongoing with the multi-donor trust fund to be set up with the World Bank to provide finance for major infrastructure projects. So certainly when it comes to more energy generation Germany can help.

I think one of the leading manufacturing nations in terms of providing technology for the mining sector. There are no major mining companies of German origin but the whole equipment of course is something our companies can offer. So for a quick economic recovery there are many sectors where investors are interested in coming but of course when you then hear of new farm invasions, of stories about non-protection of foreign investment, we have a bi-lateral investment protection agreement with Zimbabwe but it hasn’t always been respected and this is something an investor asks immediately - and there I cannot give a satisfactory answer right now. I would need a strong commitment from the Zimbabwean side that investments are safe in this country. There are some doubts about this.

GONDA: Right and there are some people who say there are virtually no investments or there’s virtually no investment in Zimbabwe right now except for some illegal ones like in the Chiadzwa (diamond fields) area. Is this an exaggeration?

CONZE: That is an exaggeration. Yes there are many sectors where the economy is picking up and where one can do things in a completely legal framework. Of course as you mentioned the diamond sector this is a matter of concern for I think the international community as a whole. Zimbabwe has been threatened to be suspended from the Kimberley Process and there was a kind of last minute agreement two months ago to monitor the situation further and not to suspend Zimbabwe . So far the signs we have seen from Chiadzwa are not encouraging in the sense of strict observance of the rule of law so this is something the diamond industry is now reacting to itself and also the private sector but it would be more than unfortunate if the continuous disorderly exploitation of the Marange diamonds as we can see it now would be in the way of Zimbabwe’s recovery - because it is a matter of perception and a matter of appreciation from the international business world. There are countries with good investment conditions and there are countries where there are many question marks. I see too many question marks in Zimbabwe .

GONDA: And you said earlier on that there’s no respect for bi-lateral agreements, what about the recent decision by the High Court to dismiss a finding by the SADC Tribunal which ruled that the government’s land reform programme was unlawful. What is your take on it?

CONZE: Well I don’t think it should be the Executives’ role and Foreign Ministries are part of the Executives of their countries to comment Court decisions. There’s a good principle that the Third Power should be completely independent and not be interfered with when they make decisions. I can only say without giving any judgement that there are a series of Court decisions, national and international that have put into question the way in which Zimbabwe has embraced the land reform. I am not saying that they have put into question the land reform altogether but the way it has been pursued has led to unclear legal situations in many respects, sometimes to violations of the law and this has been stated by quite a few Courts, nationally and internationally. So all this is a situation which only Zimbabwe itself can find a way out of and once there’s more clarity with regard to the rule of law, investment will be a lot easier and the country will recover much faster.

GONDA: And what about your take on the proposed government land audit?

CONZE: This is something that was agreed upon in the GPA, so as we have all welcomed the GPA we expect it to be implemented and also the land audit to be implemented. The European Commission is ready to contribute to its financing in a very sizeable way and I think all the conditions are united for a quick start of this land audit. I regret that not everybody on the political scene seems to be ready to go into it because that could be the beginning of more clarity and of a regain of productivity of the land in Zimbabwe which has dramatically receded over the past years.

GONDA: And you’ve said that you’re keen to see German companies coming back into Zimbabwe especially as investment is needed. But companies want to operate in a climate where the rule of law is respected, as you have said. This is a country that has endured lawlessness for a long time, so what do you think is possible under the current conditions?

CONZE: Well I can be very precise in telling you what I recommend to potential German investors right now. I tell them it is the moment to come under the following conditions: first you must know the market, you must know the area, it is good when you have previous experience it helps and you must find good local partners. Second you may invest in anything but land because land is unsafe to invest in as its status is being contested by a part of the government. So anything industrial; anything in the service industries and in infrastructure – yes. But I unfortunately have to tell everybody, hands off any land deals as long as there’s no security of tenure re-established in this country.

I have been in Africa for many years and the only thing I would like to see, and I can speak I think for my government in this respect, is Africa to get out of its position of always trailing behind the other continents. There are new generations, highly qualified who are only waiting for their chances and their opportunities so they don’t have them in all countries in Africa and if one can encourage them and if one can encourage the older generations to also let the younger ones try their luck I think then you can make enormous progress.

GONDA: Let’s move on to another issue – the issue of the constitution. Do you believe that there is any chance of Zimbabwe having a decent constitution?

CONZE: I think so Violet. I think first there is enough of blueprint that only needs to be picked up. To write a constitution is not rocket science, there are many good constitutions in the world. You can do it by a good deal of cutting and pasting, of course trying to find what people did well in other countries and what they did less well. You also go back to your own tradition of constitution making of course, so what was good in the first constitution of Zimbabwe – can that be maybe just taken over.

So the constitutional lawyers don’t have a problem, the problem is rather in the process and I’m a bit worried that there are now too many cooks in the kitchen and too many people are trying to put spices into the dish. So there’s a risk of a lack of precision in terms of directing all this to a unified text in the end. But that will really not be easy. Of course its important to consult the population but it should be done in a way that is less designed to be a gravy train for many rapporteurs on the way than to be something where you really listen, and then after having listened try to go to the text work. It can be done but of course it needs good will from all sides and it needs I think a major effort from the three parties of the GPA to do this together. I think it can still be done in this year and the Prime Minister had said so in Davos and I would agree with him in this respect. Others have said it before.

GONDA: And there have been reports that the Outreach Programme has been suspended and you are the Chair of this group of major donors who are funding this constitution making process. Has funding been withdrawn from the Outreach Programme?

CONZE: Not at all. This was a misinformation or a disinformation however you would like to call it. We are still there, we have funded preparatory work already and all this is going through UNDP whom donors have asked to be the implementing agency here. The talks are ongoing, we’re having meetings all the time and the process is on track, I think one can say so. So there was never a question of withdrawing funding.

GONDA: So do you understand why the programme was suspended or has been suspended for a while?

CONZE: Well these are internal dynamics. Because interests are different I think one has to respect this and one always needed a bit of patience in a situation like this. I think there is a lot of good will in the Commission from all parties and if others outside that Commission pursue other interests I think this will eventually I hope not derail the process. It’s just at its start so let’s be confident and let’s work. We are working on it all the time.

GONDA: T he Chairperson of the National Constitutional Assembly Dr Lovemore Madhuku is quoted in the media as saying that donors who are supporting this parliament led constitution making process should actually stop doing so, he says because the process is flawed, it’s stagnant and is a waste of money. What are your thoughts on this since you are in charge of this funding process?

CONZE: Well I have a lot of respect for Lovemore Madhuku and we discuss about this regularly. But I think there is a misunderstanding here with the artificial distinction between a people driven process and a parliament driven process. What is parliament other than the representation of the people? This parliament has been elected and it did reflect more or less, this is something you can argue about, the will of the people at the very moment of those elections. So I think there is a mandate for parliament to take a leading role because it has already been mandated by the people and people driven can mean parliament driven at the same time. So parliament needs to take its responsibility and I think the Joint Commission is trying to do just that so I would not see this as a real problem.

GONDA: And some critics actually say that donors are getting it so horribly wrong in Zimbabwe and that they’ve created a lifestyle where many organisations spend more time jostling for money than concentrating on grassroots initiatives. Has this become a lifestyle funded by donors?

CONZE: Well there are always exaggerations when it comes to such a process and as far as I know most donors are very much aware of not over funding NGOs that only want to take advantage of a particular situation. Maybe there are a few too many people now moving around the country and pretending to act in the interests of the people, that may well be. But this is a minor problem and this is only a phase. Once this constitution has been presented to the nation for the referendum I think this phase will be over and on the way. We are trying to use the money or to see the money being used in a sensible way.

GONDA: But what do you have to say about the apparent weakening or polarisation that has taken place in civil society and do you think donors, to some extent, have helped cause this problem?

CONZE: I wouldn’t exclude that, you could quote examples of this kind, but as I said this should always give donors reason to reconsider and to be a little stricter and to really be careful with how they spend their money. For the time being I cannot complain as to the way the German money has been spent in this respect but of course we are taking a lot of effort and time in order to make sure that this is going the right way.

GONDA: And earlier on in the interview you said Prime Minister Morgan Tsvangirai has said elections are expected to be held in 2011, next year, and there have been similar calls from some western countries and other African countries for elections in Zimbabwe. In your opinion, is Zimbabwe ready for elections?

CONZE: I think this is for Zimbabweans to decide once the new constitution is there. Let’s take things step by step. 2010 is the year for the constitution, 2011 could and perhaps should be the year for elections as this seems to be the prevailing consensus amongst all parties here. So how 2011 can be organised in a way to make elections free, fair, credible and peaceful is I think a matter one should focus on once the constitution has been agreed upon.

GONDA: And a final word Ambassador?

CONZE: Well Zimbabwe is a wonderful place. I’ve been here for one and a half years now and I only hope that the moment I leave it will be in much better shape than in 2008 when I first arrived. So let’s continue but hard work is needed, and Zimbabweans are hard working, that I could already see, so nothing to add to that Violet.

GONDA: Thank you very much Ambassador Conze for talking to us on the programme Hot Seat.

CONZE: It has been a pleasure.

Feedback can be sent to violet@swradioafrica.com